tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post820689295667526004..comments2023-12-20T01:41:01.970+00:00Comments on No Sleep 'Til Brooklands: On the Daily Mail and rapeNo Sleep 'Til Brooklandshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03326756018822759152noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-56496491965777758012022-03-04T21:39:46.604+00:002022-03-04T21:39:46.604+00:00Harrah's Cherokee Casino & Hotel - JT Hub
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'It...Alex I totally agree with your last para.<br /><br />'It's the child that's excluded from the decision-making process'.<br /><br />And from these kind of discussions!Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-48481128229534315342011-03-20T01:18:15.909+00:002011-03-20T01:18:15.909+00:00QRG
"This suggests the law has not protected ...<b>QRG</b><br />"<i>This suggests the law has not protected them from sexual exploitation. making things illegal does not make them not happen. See also Prostitution, drugs, guncrime.</i>"<br />Well, obviously not otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about it. But the rapists have gone down for it. It's not a perfect prevention strategy, but you could pretty much say that for any law and any crime, and that's a general law-enforcement argument rather than a statutory rape one.<br /><br /><b>McDuff</b><br />"<i>I can see how a 12 year old can meaningfully consent to certain kinds of sexual activity. I can see how an adult can meaningfully consent to group sex in a park. I do not see any way for a 12 year old to meaningfully consent to group sex in a park.</i>"<br />Odd how much you say "meaningfully". It basically proves my point that statutory rape is quite distinct from the other kind of rape and that rape and consent are a very problematic framework for interpreting the crime. Rather than consent being outright absent, it hangs on the subjective and massively culturally variable idea of what consent does or doesn't carry "meaning". You'd never hear of an adult rape victim's consent being "meaningful" or not.<br /><br />This is precisely why I think<br />"<i>you're not old enough for me to be able to make that decision.</i>"<br />is completely wrong. The entire point of treating the crime as rape is quite explicitly saying "as a child, this participant's decision is irrelevant". The adult risks punishment for the decision, that decision clearly counts. It's the child that's excluded from the decision-making process.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08288284218700038061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-16519541517157289482011-03-19T21:30:56.067+00:002011-03-19T21:30:56.067+00:00Marina said:
'In any case, as has been repeate...Marina said:<br />'In any case, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you above, the issue at hand is not the criminalisation of childhood sexuality. The only body putting the children on trial here is the Daily Mail, and if you've been reading you'll know that nobody here agrees with that position. It's the adult in the case who are criminals, as acknowledged by the court. '<br /><br />My view, as supported by Foucault, is that the whole society has some responsibility in terms of how we impose 'law' (and I mean that in the Foucauldian sense of the word) on sexuality, and how we express that via discourse, such as The Daily Mail and now blogs.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-41975817329889298072011-03-19T21:00:05.599+00:002011-03-19T21:00:05.599+00:00Hi Claire
If you wish to know more about my stance...Hi Claire<br />If you wish to know more about my stance on feminism and how it has changed do come and say hi on my blog<br /><br />www.quietgirlriot.wordpress.com<br /><br />I don't want to derail this discussion here.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-37783713841129485522011-03-19T20:58:36.547+00:002011-03-19T20:58:36.547+00:00Yes Marina Foucault was concerned with childhood s...Yes Marina Foucault was concerned with childhood sexuality and the law around sexuality full stop. I am just reading an essay /interview on the subject now in Foucault: Live.<br />I will get the full citation.<br /><br />Freud mentioned how sexual interaction with children tends to take place where children and adults meet most-e.g. in schools, and was against the 'pathologising' of paedophilia as being an illness in the individual. I will find a reference to that too.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-17805836905195030772011-03-19T20:24:42.002+00:002011-03-19T20:24:42.002+00:00The Mail seems to also b very very confused on the...The Mail seems to also b very very confused on the legal issue. The suggestion that if had taken place a week later after the "main" girl had turned 13 then no action would have been taken is simply not true. Although that creates a level of limitation it is still seen as illegal (under the age of consent) and the other girl would have still be 12 and was still "reluctant". Her actions would not have got them off the hook it would have still been rape.<br /><br />Crappy journalism start to finish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-44170955890826693472011-03-19T19:46:53.804+00:002011-03-19T19:46:53.804+00:00[i]I used to be a feminist![/i]
What are you now?...[i]I used to be a feminist![/i]<br /><br />What are you now? What stopped you believing in equal rights for women?<br /><br />Not being snarky, genuinely curious as to how one changes their mind from feminism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03834547095612951725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-45247957820187825322011-03-19T19:43:10.492+00:002011-03-19T19:43:10.492+00:00I don't recall foucault saying anything one wa...I don't recall foucault saying anything one way or another about childhood sexuality. He was interested in homosexuality & systemic sexual oppression as a tool of state power.<br /><br />Freud was indeed among the first to acknowledge the innate sexual impulses of children, but again, he had nothing much to say one way or another about criminality - do you have a citation of him on e.g. child prostitution laws?<br /><br />In any case, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you above, the issue at hand is not the criminalisation of childhood sexuality. The only body putting the children on trial here is the Daily Mail, and if you've been reading you'll know that nobody here agrees with that position. It's the adult in the case who are criminals, as acknowledged by the court.Marina Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-57521280195272505382011-03-19T14:35:36.884+00:002011-03-19T14:35:36.884+00:00They both had an approach to childhood and sexuali...They both had an approach to childhood and sexuality that involved not supporting the criminalisation of childhood sexuality, and the moralising by adults about it, from what I have read.<br /><br />Changing one's mind over time is not a bad thing it is a sign of development. I used to be a feminist!Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-20242922186662714762011-03-19T14:09:45.339+00:002011-03-19T14:09:45.339+00:00Foucault pretty much flatly disagrees with what he...Foucault pretty much flatly disagrees with what he called the "repression hypothesis" - basically, a lof of Freud - in "The Will to Knowledge", so I'm not sure why they're both being quoted here in support of the same argument. It's also worth noting that Foucault never published "The Will to Knowledge II", because he came to be convinced that he was pretty seriously wrong about a lot of stuff there. As was Freud.<br /><br />I'm just saying, I don't see how two flawed thinkers who didn't agree with each other make a sufficient support for an argument. I'm also kind of saying don't assume that just because it's the internet people are stupider than you are, but that's a separate question.Marina Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-73373119330846633232011-03-19T14:02:24.782+00:002011-03-19T14:02:24.782+00:00No, I don't.No, I don't.sian and crooked ribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13842124816056940605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-64640517944039309802011-03-19T13:59:53.070+00:002011-03-19T13:59:53.070+00:00I have a substantive point McDuff but I am having ...I have a substantive point McDuff but I am having the conversation over at my own blog now rather than be harangued here. Feel free to harangue me there as well but at least I have a bit more control.<br /><br />Oh and I recommend Three Essays on Sexuality by Freud it is really good.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-92192802530096210532011-03-19T13:58:12.758+00:002011-03-19T13:58:12.758+00:00Grating and aggressive. I suppose it beats being a...Grating and aggressive. I suppose it beats being all patronising when you can't find it in you to make or back up a substantive point, so I guess I'll stick with it.McDuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04787282124319171752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-67718945130923112862011-03-19T13:30:28.334+00:002011-03-19T13:30:28.334+00:00Sian - I did not say the girls consented to the se...Sian - I did not say the girls consented to the sex in this case. It is not actually 'clear' what happened though as we are not privvy to all the information of that case. <br /><br />I am glad you have read Freud and Foucault. Though you don't seem to share their perspectives.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-25702732498361648502011-03-19T13:15:17.584+00:002011-03-19T13:15:17.584+00:00I've read Freud and foucault. I still think th...I've read Freud and foucault. I still think that a 12 year old can't meaningfully consent to sex with 5 adult men. And that those men should have not had sex with a 12 year old girl. It is clear that the girl was coerced. If we didn't have statutory rape laws, then those men would continue to think it is ok to put pressure on and coerce a child into having sex with them. As mcduff days, this is about meaningful consent. <br /><br />I think its so sad that girls are growing up believing that sex isn't something you do because you want to, but something you do because you are supposed to, or are coerced into. As per the quote I mentioned earlier. It's why I say we have to start teaching about meaningful consent. <br /><br />There is a position between daily mail pearl clutching 'slut shaming' and saying there should be no age of consent to protect children after all.sian and crooked ribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13842124816056940605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-26171172385608541392011-03-19T13:09:59.357+00:002011-03-19T13:09:59.357+00:00McDuff- I know you love to argue with me. You real...McDuff- I know you love to argue with me. You really love it.<br /><br />I don't enjoy arguing with you quite so much. You have a tone of voice I find very grating and aggressive. I will go back to my books. Take good care.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-58134598259333500182011-03-19T13:08:03.636+00:002011-03-19T13:08:03.636+00:00Wait wait, now I am sensationalist because I disag...Wait wait, now I am sensationalist because I disagree with Sigmund Freud about something? Or, what?<br /><br />"I totes have more sex psychology books than you" is not exactly making an argument as much as refusing to make one because I'm just not smart enough to understand the pearls you'd drop into this here hog trough. People might know about Freud AND happen to disagree with his opinions OR your opinions on what his opinions mean AND this might not be proof that they are big dumb idiot heads.<br /><br />Was there a part of this thread where you actually thought you might bring some enlightenment to us unwashed masses, or did you pretty much just come in here to wave your PhD/Cock around and prove to everyone that you are so too smarter these dumbo feminists who probably *haven't even read Foucault*, like some kind of *fucking intellectual lepers*?McDuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04787282124319171752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-89901501820713472552011-03-19T12:33:16.360+00:002011-03-19T12:33:16.360+00:00Yes I do McDuff. My theoretical mechanism is to do...Yes I do McDuff. My theoretical mechanism is to do with the theories i have come to respect about sexuality, e.g. from my readings of Freud and Foucault, both of whom by the way have challenged the criminalisation of sexual activity, either with children or adults.<br /><br />You don't have to get all 'sensationalist' like the Daily Mail does when talking about this subject. I understand it is sensitive. <br />But maybe if people did more reading of great writers on sexuality and less reading of The Daily Mail we might be able to have a more intelligent debate.<br /><br />Best wishes.Ellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01103667133412183125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-26482914190879711782011-03-19T12:19:32.385+00:002011-03-19T12:19:32.385+00:00Mcduff, I totally agree.Mcduff, I totally agree.sian and crooked ribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13842124816056940605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-4934252536699647422011-03-19T12:15:54.600+00:002011-03-19T12:15:54.600+00:00This suggests the law has not protected them from ...<i> This suggests the law has not protected them from sexual exploitation. making things illegal does not make them not happen. See also Prostitution, drugs, guncrime.</i><br /><br />Oh whoa whoa whoa whoa What The Actual Fuckery is this?<br /><br />Child abuse is *nothing like* prostitution or drug use, for aforementioned reasons of consent. Laws against theft don't prevent 100% of shoplifting, do we therefore say the laws "don't work"?<br /><br />The huge argument around legalising things like drugs and prostitution is based not just around adult consent but also around harm minimisation. Do you have any kind of theoretical mechanism *at all* by which the removal of statutory rape laws would result in *less* harm to minors?McDuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04787282124319171752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3104088946474183171.post-5750359199163014572011-03-19T12:01:48.590+00:002011-03-19T12:01:48.590+00:00"As well as turning down a romp with an allur..."<i>As well as turning down a romp with an alluring minor, you're having to tell an emotionally fragile teenager that however willing if not desperate they are, they're not old enough to make that decision. That however long they've thought about it and however many times they've said they want it, actually, you the grown-up know better, and they don't.</i>"<br /><br />It's actually closer to "you're not old enough for me to be able to make that decision." While based on the justification that we — rightly — view any decision by a 12 year old to consent to sex with an adult as suspicious, the onus is on the behaviour of the adult to not have sex with that 12 year old.<br /><br />The thing is, consent is not just the linguistic act of saying yes. There are many factors that can turn a "yes" into an invalid form of consent, including coercion, intoxication, misinformation, or simple lack of knowledge. The further down the age range you go, "however long they've thought about it" gets much shorter and the mental tools they've used to think about it get more crude, such that capacity to say yes becomes significantly non-equivalent to capacity to consent as we properly define it. At the other end of the scale, the more "extreme" the sex act, the less likely it is that the cruder tools of young people's minds have been able to comprehend them sufficiently in order to say yes to them.<br /><br />I can see how a 12 year old can meaningfully consent to certain kinds of sexual activity. I can see how an adult can meaningfully consent to group sex in a park. I do not see any way for a 12 year old to meaningfully consent to group sex in a park.<br /><br />I also don't see how six adults can claim complete innocence of foreknowledge and coercion when there was an additional 12 year old there to the "slutty" one and she was coerced into sex despite her lack of consent. One of the reasons we deliberately disbelieve kids who might be telling the truth is that it gives us more legal grounds to disbelieve adults who are definitely lying. Adults have more capacity to not just coerce during but also after the fact, which is an extension of the original abuse and general removal of consent.<br /><br />Look at it this way. If a child who had bruises from being punched said "It was a good thing I was hit, I was a bad boy and I deserved it" would that *count*? Would it be patronising or condescending to say "actually, no, regardless of the depth of your belief, you cannot consent to being punched in the face and we will not allow that"? Does it matter that someone can make an argument that adults can, in various situations, consent to being punched in the face?<br /><br />The existence of a system in which young people have faced historical injustices as a class does not mean that every bit of law affecting our treatment of minors will inevitably go. It should be scrutinised, sure, but the concept of a "too young to consent" is solid, even if we can justifiably have conversations about figuring out precisely when that is and how fuzzy and grey the boundaries are.McDuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04787282124319171752noreply@blogger.com